Any Idea's - 600 Lumpy Running & Cutting Out

[RoverMatt]

Hi guys, having a bit of a rough time of it at the moment, here is a brief overview of what has happened:

Bought a 600 SDi last week for £500, the owner didnt let on the problems, and I bought it off eBay, all appeared okay within reason when picking the car up, its only done 97,000 and has been reguarly serviced with all reciepts etc, as well as fantastic condition inside and out. Had a 420SLDi in the past and not really had much in the way of problems with that, so always looked at the L-Series as bombproof.

However, the car is suffering from the following problems:

- Oil appears as though it may be getting fuel into it?
- Spluttery at low revs - would travel down the motorway fine all day, but at idle and slowing down it becomes very spluttery.
- Has cut out 3 times in the past week, as though the revs have just died, and then been absolute murder to start.
- Black smoke at 4000rpm+, nothing much else other than this.

Done the usual checks, wiring to injector number 1, EGR valve (even disconnected the EGR solenoid, because there was rattling sound that is like a buzzing that happens from time to time, though it didnt get rid of the sound, so its not the solenoid), MAF sensor etc and it was still lumpy. Ive checked the wires in the back lights themselves, all looks okay, though there is a towbar which may cause issues I guess, but dont have a clue where the wiring is, or where it is in the engine bay for the lights (I have tried disconnecting the light switch, the EML came on, but the lumpiness remained). Then it cut out for the first time.

Took it to the local MGRover specialist the next day (my usual garage/mechanic), who said he could smell diesel in the oil, and it was likely the fuel pump. The oil level does appear to slowly increase over time. However, he is on holiday until the 13th October, so cannot look at it properly till then (bloody annoying). He rekons the fuel pump would be leaking fuel into the oil - not sure how. He advised the engine itself sounds fine.

Took it to another garage who just threw it on the machine for £20 and came back with the MAF sensor - which is because I had previously removed it - feel they robbed me too, because they said they drove it and could find no problems with it. Then took it to my former garage of choice (bit of a distance, not Rover specialists etc) who had a look at it and said it is most probably the fuel pump, they replaced the bleed off pipes to see if it made any difference but alas it didnt. They advised that they were not specialists with regards the particular engine or fuel injection systems, and to be fair, didnt charge me anything for looking at it and replacing the bleed pipes. I asked how much to fit a new pump, and they said provided it does not need coding, off the top of their head, about £250 or so - though they didnt actually work it out because they said its probably better to go to a specialist. It cut out last night as I got home (as I was parking in my space evenly, it ws getting lumpier and lumpier and in the end I just let it cut out instead of putting more revs in [to see what would happen]), and was absolute murder to start this morning. This morning I have replaced the fuel filter (the other one wasnt that old anyway) and I have managed to get Millers 4 EcoMax or whatever from Motor World on Friday, so have been running that since then - have not noticed much in the way of difference.

So basically, I am at a loss, the specialist seems to think its probably the fuel pump, but cannot say for sure until its been in and he has had a proper look. He is saying about £110 for fitting if I can source one. Is this a good price and what you would expect? I am taking it into another garage tomorrow, which claims also to be a Rover specialist, though I have never used them before (however I know they have been around for many years and trading as Rover specialists as ive noticed them a few times). Shall see what they say, and then taking it into another garage on Tuesday to get a further opinion - unless the garage tomorrow can give a better opinion on the fault, im just stuck for what to do!

Is it straightforward to change a fuel pump? I know there is timing to get right, and this is what really scares me about doing it. Have you ever heard of diesel ending up in the oil as a result of a dud fuel pump? Ive done a fair amount of things on engine related issues (servicing etc) before, but nothing such as opening up an engine (done a rocker gasket thats about as far it goes in that respect), and have a basic set of tools. I do have a friend who is a lot more mechanically minded and has opened up engines etc, built a couple of kit cars and hotrods, and is an engineer so has plenty of tools, but if its a pain in the arse job etc, id rather take it in. How long would it take an amateur.

Im pretty much skint atm, so though I think (and in some ways hope) it is the fuel pump, I can't really make an offer till I know for certain as the last thing I need is to go buying a fuel pump, without knowing for sure.

Cheers in advance, all info and ideas much appreciated. It may be better to explain things to look for and check (such as where they are and what they look like) as I don't know a massive amount about these engines.

[E_T_V]

I'd be looking at the injectors rather than the pump.

A faulty injector could cause fuel to get into the oil and would also give running issues which could be intermittant.

[RoverMatt]

Cheers for the advice, so do you think it is quite likely my pump is just fine, given the symptoms im experiencing combined with the supposed diesel in the oil. I must admit the engine sounds okay, and the MGR specialist I usually use confirmed it sounds normal. Would this explain the problems starting after the engine cuts out? To be honest, with the possibility of diesel in the oil, my old mechanic did suggest an injector would be the likely culprit for this symptom at least. How easy is it to remove the injectors and what should I be looking for? Is it simply a case of taking them to an injector tester, and/or can one do any test with a multi-meter or anything like one can with glowplugs (shot in the dark I know lol). What should I be looking to pay to get them tested (or is it a case of how long is a piece of string). Come to think of it, there is some fuel around injector number one - but it does appear to come from out of the sponge on the cover - maybe I should clean the area and put a thick rag over it, to see if its leaking. When I was looking at getting a 25/45, I found out about the SDi injectors upgrade, so I know you can pick a set up for sub-£100.

Your help is invaluable with this issue, I just wish to god my normal MGR specialist was able to look at it, so I would know one way or another what is wrong with it.

Now for a bit of a story with todays experience/attempt to get it diagnosed and possibly fixed...

I took it to this other supposed "Rover specialist" today, and to be honest, the where no different and no better than a normal garage - though they tried to charge me £60 for "cutting back the fuel pipes leading to my fuel filter because they had diesel on them" I did the fuel filter yesterday and spilt some lol and apparently "replacing the bleed-off pipes" which where replaced the other day by my usual garage, for no charge! In addition to this, they told me they had taken it for a good test drive and found no evidence of cutting out, even though it was on 134 miles when I left my home this morning, and it was on 137 miles when I left their garage this afternoon - and it is the best part of 3 miles away), and the mechanic who inspected the car informed me he didnt check the oil (he did later on) and that if the "kick" as I call it, when the engine drops to idle, where it feels like the revs are about to drop completely and then (most of the time) recovers is the only problem I have with the car, I should not worry about it - no regard for the fact that was one of the main symptoms and I was more interested in knowing why it was doing it rather than just being told not to worry about it as I know from when I owned the 420 it is completely abnormal! As I had stated I wanted to be made aware of any charges prior to work being carried out as im not a bank, and think they have essentially tried to pull a fast one, knowing there is a more serious issue, I refused to pay and it is in dispute.

It seems after years of pretty much trouble-free motoring from a Rover 420SLDi and a Rover 75 (still got this), and never having bought a dud car or being conned in my life, its all gone downhill for me since I bought this car! To make matters worse, I got in the 75 earlier to move it across the driveway, and oh its so quiet, whisper silent, making me hate the 600 even more right now!

[E_T_V]

Whereabouts are you? If anywhere near Scunthorpe or Gainsborough I could take a quick look one evening.

If you take out the injectors and then take them to a diesel specialist testing them is usually pretty cheap and can be done in a few minutes whilst you wait.

The other way is to simply substitute them for a known good set.

[RoverMatt]

Hi,

Im afraid im not near either of them places unfortunately, located in Cheshire, thanks for the kind offer though, that was fantastic! Im going to make it todays mission to find an injector tester locally - I am considering purchasing a set of SDi injectors and trying them, as I guess you can't really lose money on them given the fact that 25 and 45 and zed owners go mad for them.

Do you think a bad/leaking injector can cause problems starting, after cutting out, or is it more likely to be pump failiure/timing?

It starts fine most other times, just when its cut out and on the odd occasion here and there it can be a bit slow to start (like 5 seconds, which is about what my 420 was, though most of the time the engine starts in under 2 seconds).

[RoverMatt]

Right, im not wanting to tempt fate here, but I have done the following things in the past few days, and it does appear to be running better - less jerky, hesitant at low revs, and almost (I do stress "almost") eliminated the "kick" I was getting when the car was returning to idle from being revved (at any rpm).

- Been running Millers EcoMax diesel fuel additive.
- Tightened up the clamp on injector number 1 slightly.

As I say, it does so far, appear to be running much better. Could this have simply been a case of dirty injectors/fuel pump internals, and the Millers has started having the desired effect, and for want of a better phrase, saved my ass? Or is it more likely to be a very slightly loose injector number 1? I am taking it to my engineer friend on Sunday (he has more/better tools) and we are going to check all the injector connections are as tight as possible (my tools are not really suitable for it, its just a basic Draper set).

Im thinking more likely its the Millers myself. Only done about 180 miles since I got the car, I did put the Millers in last Thursday (was probably around the 90 mile mark), but it does say it spends the first 200 miles cleaning up your fuel system before you see any difference.

I did a mini-Italian Tune-up last night to try and clear some cobwebs, 3800rpm'ish in 4th gear along the motorway for 3 - 4 miles - is this okay, or should I actually avoid doing this - I have seen a few people on the net recommending doing this with diesel engines when you have problems?

Also, there is a strange intermittent buzzing noise that comes from the car, usually when its warmed up and at higher revs (tends to start on the motorway for instance) but does happen at lower revs as well once it starts and gets in the swing of things. I disconnected what I believe to be the EGR solenoid, but the noise remains - any idea what it could be - deffo sounds like its coming from the dashboard area, pretty central, im guessing most likely from the engine bay, it almost sounds as though something is loose until you hear it continuous buzzing and you realise its something electrical. Its not the fuel pump on its way is it, as I know that buzzes for its solenoid - next time I hear the noise, ill pop the engine and try to re-create it. Its quite loud within the cabin, and very very annoying when it starts.

As always, thanks for all your help, im just hoping and praying that its the millers making a difference, and I may soon, have a car that I can drive safely and comfortably, and that I can trust.

[E_T_V]

There isn't an electric fuel pump so you can discount that. The EGR solenoid on the bulkhead can sound like an angry wasp. Unplug its electric plug to see if that is the cause. Another common rattle is the gearstick!

Was it running veg oil before perhaps? This can give all sorts of issues particularly when it is cold.

The italian tune up is commonly recommended for diesels. Max revs at max throttle is good for blowing the cobwebs out (usually acumulated soot)

[RoverMatt]

Time for an update methinks... The lumpy idling has pretty much disappeared, though I still think its not as smooth as it should be, can feel a bit jerky/lumpy at times when driving, maybe its just me, but I don't remember this from when I had a 420...

It appears as though the oil level is NOT increasing - the only thing I can think of, is that the guy who sold the car to me, added oil the day he sold it, which is the reason it was overfull, and also the reason the MGR specialist rekoned it looked very new/too clean?

I have been monitoring the fuel consumpton very closely and I am getting around 51mpg with a mix of driving, including at least half of the driving non-motorway miles, so I assuming this i pretty much as it should be? Im off to Alton Towers next week for Scarefest, and am planning on going in the diesel, it's a good 180 mile round trip, and is mainly motorway, so it will be interesting to see what mpg I get.

However, there are some problems that reamain...

There is still a slight drop/hesitation/kick (not sure how to describe it) when the revs drop back to idle... its nothing like it was though, and in all honesty, im not overly concerned by it.

I am still hearing an electrical buzzing noise when driving, it's not rattling as its not always present (though when it does happen, it is at any revs/speed and it almost sounds like arcing or something), and its not the EGR solenoid as I have disconnected that, the MAF sensor and the pipe on the EGR itself. Ill try and get it on video next time I hear it - its not always present, about 50% of the time.

And finally, since the bad lumpy idling problem has gone away, a slight issue with the needle moving and engine sort of pulsing/hunting or whatever at idle has developed. It seems to be present only when hot and can be a bit un-nerving. Id say its probably moving up and down about 40rpm (forty) or so when its really bad, but as a driver I notice it, and my missus says she can notice the engine sorting of revving slightly higher and then back and then higher and then back, and can see the needle moving slightly, so im not imagining it. It happens every 2 seconds or so, and te higher revs last about 1 second before dropping back.

I have obviously tried removing the EGR solenoid/MAF sensor/EGR pipe as above, and it has made no difference. I have tried to capture it on video tonight, but to be honest, it was only about half as bad as it can be - I will attempt to capture it again when I next see the problem at its worst/most noticeable.

Here is the video link to what I captured tonight - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVdYEuFVC3Y - as I say, it was only about half as bad as it can be, and though its hard at first, you can notice the needle slightly moving.

Thanks fo any advice in advance.

[FrankJScott]

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[FrankJScott]

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